Comments on: Internet Explorer 8 standards-compliant by default http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2008/03/04/internet-explorer-8-standards-compliant-by-default scratched tallies on the prison wall Thu, 28 Aug 2008 18:39:13 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Save the Developers - stillbreathing.co.uk - website design and development http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2008/03/04/internet-explorer-8-standards-compliant-by-default#comment-109596 Save the Developers - stillbreathing.co.uk - website design and development Fri, 28 Mar 2008 09:13:28 +0000 http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2008/03/04/internet-explorer-8-standards-compliant-by-default#comment-109596 [...] in standards compliance between Internet Explorer 6 and 7, and the recent announcements about even greater things to come in Internet Explorer 8, the time has come to get rid of the bane of web developers once and for all. That’s right: [...] [...] in standards compliance between Internet Explorer 6 and 7, and the recent announcements about even greater things to come in Internet Explorer 8, the time has come to get rid of the bane of web developers once and for all. That’s right: [...]

]]> By: Giacomo http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2008/03/04/internet-explorer-8-standards-compliant-by-default#comment-108458 Giacomo Thu, 06 Mar 2008 11:28:36 +0000 http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2008/03/04/internet-explorer-8-standards-compliant-by-default#comment-108458 Stuart, I wasn't attacking you :) I'm sure you know that in the UK the "EU debate" is constantly being rehashed in pubs and offices with tabloid-fuelled arguments like "they stoppin' us from havin' huge bananas! the EU is pointless!" etc etc (and then they jump on a plane for Spain, but I digress). It's nice to be able to remind people that the EU is often a force for good, when we embrace it and use it properly. btw, I don't think we'll ever see a "standalone IE8" after all the effort they put in making sure you can't take it off Windows (and from a different perspective, forcing them to do it by an authority would open the door to requests to allow third-party browsers to replace IE on Windows, lowering demand for Linux). Stuart, I wasn’t attacking you :) I’m sure you know that in the UK the “EU debate” is constantly being rehashed in pubs and offices with tabloid-fuelled arguments like “they stoppin’ us from havin’ huge bananas! the EU is pointless!” etc etc (and then they jump on a plane for Spain, but I digress).
It’s nice to be able to remind people that the EU is often a force for good, when we embrace it and use it properly.

btw, I don’t think we’ll ever see a “standalone IE8″ after all the effort they put in making sure you can’t take it off Windows (and from a different perspective, forcing them to do it by an authority would open the door to requests to allow third-party browsers to replace IE on Windows, lowering demand for Linux).

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2008/03/04/internet-explorer-8-standards-compliant-by-default#comment-108449 Anonymous Wed, 05 Mar 2008 02:59:34 +0000 http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2008/03/04/internet-explorer-8-standards-compliant-by-default#comment-108449 whatever whatever

]]> By: sil http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2008/03/04/internet-explorer-8-standards-compliant-by-default#comment-108447 sil Tue, 04 Mar 2008 23:09:39 +0000 http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2008/03/04/internet-explorer-8-standards-compliant-by-default#comment-108447 Jeff: hey, calm down a bit, dude. :)<br /> <br /> I'm not blaming Mozilla particularly. My point is that Safari got a certain amount of kudos for being first to pass Acid 2; whoever first passes Acid 3 will get the same. Similarly, the last to pass Acid 2 was always going to be Internet Explorer, because everyone expects it to be rubbish. If IE passes Acid 3 before one of its rivals, it's going to make the rival look pretty bad -- "<em>even Internet Explorer</em> has passed"!<br /> Jeff: hey, calm down a bit, dude. :)

I’m not blaming Mozilla particularly. My point is that Safari got a certain amount of kudos for being first to pass Acid 2; whoever first passes Acid 3 will get the same. Similarly, the last to pass Acid 2 was always going to be Internet Explorer, because everyone expects it to be rubbish. If IE passes Acid 3 before one of its rivals, it’s going to make the rival look pretty bad — “even Internet Explorer has passed”!

]]> By: Jeff Walden http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2008/03/04/internet-explorer-8-standards-compliant-by-default#comment-108446 Jeff Walden Tue, 04 Mar 2008 22:58:05 +0000 http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2008/03/04/internet-explorer-8-standards-compliant-by-default#comment-108446 "the Mozilla team might end up being last to pass"? Ridiculous. The layout stuff they've been fixing in IE8 may help with how they render it, but the tests in Acid3 are pretty much all for DOM behaviors, which means they need to support the W3C event model, among other things. That's a release's worth of effort in and of itself, for sure. That's not including the things like SVG or downloadable TTF font support the test uses that will be similarly large amounts of code. And really, why are you blaming Mozilla for being slow when the test is being released at the end of a release cycle? There's nothing they can do about that (really, the only organization that has any ability to control that is Microsoft, by virtue of being the last to implement Acid2), and pushing off a release purely to implement the big features Acid3 requires is idiocy of the first degree. The web's gotten by without a lot of the stuff in Acid3, it'll deal for a little longer -- and it'll take advantage of the new functionality Firefox 3 supports while it does so. In any case Firefox 4 will pass Acid3, I'm sure! “the Mozilla team might end up being last to pass”? Ridiculous. The layout stuff they’ve been fixing in IE8 may help with how they render it, but the tests in Acid3 are pretty much all for DOM behaviors, which means they need to support the W3C event model, among other things. That’s a release’s worth of effort in and of itself, for sure. That’s not including the things like SVG or downloadable TTF font support the test uses that will be similarly large amounts of code.

And really, why are you blaming Mozilla for being slow when the test is being released at the end of a release cycle? There’s nothing they can do about that (really, the only organization that has any ability to control that is Microsoft, by virtue of being the last to implement Acid2), and pushing off a release purely to implement the big features Acid3 requires is idiocy of the first degree. The web’s gotten by without a lot of the stuff in Acid3, it’ll deal for a little longer — and it’ll take advantage of the new functionality Firefox 3 supports while it does so. In any case Firefox 4 will pass Acid3, I’m sure!

]]> By: sil http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2008/03/04/internet-explorer-8-standards-compliant-by-default#comment-108440 sil Tue, 04 Mar 2008 13:39:50 +0000 http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2008/03/04/internet-explorer-8-standards-compliant-by-default#comment-108440 Rob: true, but...what else are they going to say? "We promise that there will be no bugs"? Hardly realistic. <br /> <br /> It's possible that "IE8 will...interpret web content in the most standards compliant way it can" is secret code for "we're not going to change anything", and I can see why people don't want to give Microsoft the benefit of the doubt on this, but I personally think that they're going to try.<br /> Rob: true, but…what else are they going to say? “We promise that there will be no bugs”? Hardly realistic.

It’s possible that “IE8 will…interpret web content in the most standards compliant way it can” is secret code for “we’re not going to change anything”, and I can see why people don’t want to give Microsoft the benefit of the doubt on this, but I personally think that they’re going to try.

]]> By: Rob http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2008/03/04/internet-explorer-8-standards-compliant-by-default#comment-108439 Rob Tue, 04 Mar 2008 13:37:35 +0000 http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2008/03/04/internet-explorer-8-standards-compliant-by-default#comment-108439 I don't find it very inspiring when, in the IEBlog, Dean says IE8 will do the best it can with web standards. Not very uplifting words is it? I don’t find it very inspiring when, in the IEBlog, Dean says IE8 will do the best it can with web standards. Not very uplifting words is it?

]]> By: Karl Lattimer http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2008/03/04/internet-explorer-8-standards-compliant-by-default#comment-108438 Karl Lattimer Tue, 04 Mar 2008 11:21:53 +0000 http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2008/03/04/internet-explorer-8-standards-compliant-by-default#comment-108438 The first step to repenting should be having a sacrifice in the style of Ballmer, tied to a burning cross, roasted crucification :) After what the man has said in the past about Linux, open source etc... He shouldn't be allowed anywhere near this "repentant" Microsoft, he is, in and of himself the major hurdle to any future success of Microsoft. Of course, this is a good move, not one I would expect to have been made without the EU interference. The first step to repenting should be having a sacrifice in the style of Ballmer, tied to a burning cross, roasted crucification :) After what the man has said in the past about Linux, open source etc… He shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near this “repentant” Microsoft, he is, in and of himself the major hurdle to any future success of Microsoft.

Of course, this is a good move, not one I would expect to have been made without the EU interference.

]]> By: sil http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2008/03/04/internet-explorer-8-standards-compliant-by-default#comment-108436 sil Tue, 04 Mar 2008 10:18:41 +0000 http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2008/03/04/internet-explorer-8-standards-compliant-by-default#comment-108436 Giacomo: I'm not sure. I imagine that it was a factor in the decision, certainly. I don't think the EU's useless; I think sometimes they're good (like on this issue) and sometimes they're bad (like some of the time on software patents), but I rarely think they're neutral or useless on technological issues. Giacomo: I’m not sure. I imagine that it was a factor in the decision, certainly. I don’t think the EU’s useless; I think sometimes they’re good (like on this issue) and sometimes they’re bad (like some of the time on software patents), but I rarely think they’re neutral or useless on technological issues.

]]> By: sil http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2008/03/04/internet-explorer-8-standards-compliant-by-default#comment-108435 sil Tue, 04 Mar 2008 10:17:29 +0000 http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2008/03/04/internet-explorer-8-standards-compliant-by-default#comment-108435 Karl: I agree that it's proprietary lockin. The Microsoft argument there has been that we, the web standards community, are basically demanding that they go back in time and don't do that, which they can't do. They (Microsoft) feel that they shouldn't be condemned for bad decisions that they made in the past; repentance is possible. Today's decision to say "we consider forward progress more important than maintaining our proprietary lockin" is a good step on the road to that repentance. Karl: I agree that it’s proprietary lockin. The Microsoft argument there has been that we, the web standards community, are basically demanding that they go back in time and don’t do that, which they can’t do. They (Microsoft) feel that they shouldn’t be condemned for bad decisions that they made in the past; repentance is possible. Today’s decision to say “we consider forward progress more important than maintaining our proprietary lockin” is a good step on the road to that repentance.

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